Chestnut Clydesdales

What a pain. I've been searching through what seems like millions of sites, searching for chestnut Clydesdales and the source of the chestnut.

Here is the problem: to be chestnut, a horse must lack the E gene. This means that both parents must be heterozygous on that allele in order to contribute the appropriate genotype, ee__. The only way to tell if a parent horse is heterozygous or not without genetic testing, is if they produced a chestnut foal. But finding chestnut foals is tough, because a lot of Clydesdale breeders breed for bay and black foals, and don't tend to breed on the chestnut foal, let alone display it proudly on their website.

So then you're left with guessing if a parent is heterozygous. Either the bay or black horse could be a homozygous black, with EE. Even if they are heterozygous, there is still a 50% probability they won't pass on the e allele. The chance of "correctly" choosing which two parents could produce a chestnut (without having a live chestnut horse for evidence) is really difficult.

Most of the model horse chestnut Clydesdales trace to an elusive "Zodiac Lady" bred sometime in the early 80s, possibly 70s, or maybe even late 60s. She was sired by a "Paddock Gemini", another horse I couldn't track down.

Paddock Gemini also shows up in the second pedigree here, an ancestor to Heretic, owned by Wildwing Model Horse Stables. This is a dead end, because the site was closed down.

Then I came across a reference to Lochleven Clydesdales owned by Lori Williams on the Indigo Creek Stables website. A google search turns up nothing on a website or reference photos for Lochleven Clydesdales. She has a chestnut horse bred from two Lochleven Clydes, Lochleven Idle Charm [Doura Major (r) -x- Royal Candy Floss (r)] and Lochleven Nobleman's Desire ZI [Gowanlea Ambition (r) -x- Premier's Nobleman Perfection (r)]. I could find no color mention on Doura Major or Royal Candy Floss. I could find absolutely nothing on Gowanlea Ambition or Premier's Nobleman Perfection. Another dead end.

Her other horse, a mare, is full sister to a real sorrel Clydesdale mare seen here (very bottom). The pedigree of the mare's dam is here. There is no information listed for the horse, but far back in the pedigree, Bardrill Vintage is shown as a chestnut roan. The only yahoo search that comes up for Bardrill Vintage is my own site LOL. As I've already used him for one of my mares, I'll have to keep looking for fresh bloodlines.

Here is where it gets even more confusing. West Edge Commander has a foal called Red Barney's Amazin Grace here. This horse LOOKS sorrel, but it's hard to tell how young the horse is in the photo, as well. Many, many Clydesdale babies start out with a light coat and mane/tail, and then darken with age. Sometimes the darkness comes in at first with gray streaks that are hard to see in a young horse.

Now, West Edge Commander's progeny page in allbreed here shows he has *three* chestnut foals. Two of them "Miss Liberty" are the same horse with the name spelled different. As you can see here, Miss Liberty is clearly a bay, although she looked chestnut as a baby.

His other foal, Desert Rose can be seen here. They have her listed as a bay roan. I'm not sure if they tested her genetically or not. But I see two conflicting things that prevent me from making a personal decision. One: Her right hindleg doesn't have white around the knee, and the knee does not look black. This would suggest a chestnut. However, her mane looks awfully "dirty", with aforementioned gray streaks coming in.

Is West Edge Commander heterozygous? Maybe. But his pedigree doesn't lend any help to determining if he had any chestnut or chestnut-producing ancestors.